Talk:Ashido Kanō
Bankai? Isn't it entirely possible Ashido has attained bankai,as it is stated he has been fightng hollows for centuries? Our policy is that unless a character is a captain, until they show that they have achieved Bankai, we mark that they have not achieved it.--[[User:Godisme|'God']] (Pray) 02:53, December 22, 2010 (UTC) I would agree that it should maybe be Unknown as opposed to not achieved. He is probable the most likely non captain not shown using Bankai to have achieved it. . Again, we have a policy on this. It was never said he had achieved Bankai and we will not speculate that he did. End of discussion-- Several missing info 1) Only 2 of the 3 fights Ashido had with Adjuchas before meeting up with Ichigo are noted. Yes, the one where Rukia announces she's 'not dead weight' also counts, because he loses his mask then. 2) Only on par with normal adjuchas and officer level? Rukia was strong enough to send Aaroniero flying back with her power when she got angry, yet most of the time she could barely follow Ashido's movements, and the normal adjuchas, with the exception of the most powerful and experianced adjuchas in the menos forest, he completely outmatches. (losing his mask while protecting Rukia doesn't count). The most recent editor is trying to make it sound like his abilities are only officer level and less then vice-captain level. 3) Ability to slice menos from distance while unreleased the same way Kenpachi sliced a building in half, but on a smaller scale maybe. Note worthy considering its a visible skill, at least in swordsmanship skills since its not a named technique. 4) When I read his Shunpo skill, it makes it sound like he does not use shunpo for combat, but only for defence and movement. However, he used Shunpo to kill 6 menos within one second faster then Rukia could see. On top of that, when he saved Rukia for the first time, he did a double shunpo that was faster then a cero to grab her to safety. Considering its an ability that made one of the most important main characters of bleach alive, its more then noteworthy.Cronomatt (talk) 16:33, April 5, 2011 (UTC) Arrancar109 is going to overhaul this article.-- On top of that, I have to tell you that you can't really use the Aaroniero fight here mostly because Aaroniero doesn't take Rukia seriously throughout the entire fight. Rukia is confirmed to be on-par with officer-level Shinigami, but not Lieutenant-level, and Rukia is the only Shinigami Ashido fights. Trying to say anything further would be speculation. [[User:Arrancar109|'Arrancar109']] (Talk) 06:51, April 5, 2011 (UTC) That is mostly false. Aaroniero uses his full released sword's lieutenant class strength against Rukia when he unleashes Nejibana, and he was one of the strongest lieutenant's, a prodigy. And while he knew most of her skills perfectly, as all master do, Rukia was able to fight on par with him for quite a while before finally getting disarmed. I could go further in saying that she was able to overwelm him and possibly seriously injure him with kido, but I know its a loss cause to say that, I understand the policies. I know that no matter how many times her unrestrained powers seem to waver between lieutenant and even captain depending on the arc, you can't say she's lieutenant class until someone actaully says it. I get that. Everyone knows she surpassed a lot of lieutenant's a long time ago, but until someone says it, you can't say it. But that's not even the point. It still says 'fight on par'. If you can't even follow the movements of the person you are fighting for 70% of the time, its not 'on par', it means that if they are serious about killing you, your dead in a second. I mean, do you really think for a second that Aaroniero, with a lieutenant elite body, was faster then Ashido? Using Rukia as a gauge, that would be a huge lie. There is a huge difference between being nearly a match in speed, which Rukia and Aaroniero was, and completely overwelmed which Rukia was to Ashido in combat, and when observing him in combat, his overwelming speed and power drove Ruka to the point where Rukia commented that his power with an unreleased sword....was as equivalant to a bankai. Fact. Forgive me when I say this, but please, don't bother responding if you don't intend to address that comment. If Rukia is officer level only, she's of the highest rank, but Ashido's movements were completely invisible to her for most of the time. I can list on 8 different occasions where his speed completely overwelmed her senses. He fought her until he could measure her strength was high enough to fight gillian and adjuchas level opponants, who, with the exception of the elite hole-through-the-heart adjuchas, he dominates in fights. I mean, he still matched almost every single move the monster had, but Rukia was helpful in giving the final blow. Arrancar109, your speculating Ashido is a lot weaker then he actually is, ignoring blatent proof of his superior fighting skills. If he really has been fighting for several hundred years, then he's one of the oldest shinigami in bleach, with the exception of the 4 oldest captains. That with all the overwelming knowledge....you still belittle him to 'on par with officer class'? I'll hear your justification.Cronomatt (talk) 16:32, April 5, 2011 (UTC) From my eyes, I think the issue here is that we really don't have proper comparisons. We can't say that he's captain class simply because he's never been compared to captain. I agree with you that it could be worded quite a bit differently, but we can only confirm ''that, since Rukia herself is an officer in level, he is an officer level fighter; though evidence points overwhelmingly towards top 2 seats (captain/lieutenant), we can't say it until explicitly stated. And mind you, "seated officer" could mean variety of different things. Take a look at Koga Kuchiki, for example. Ginrei already admitted that his power was far stronger than his, and he gave Byakuya a lot of trouble, although he had his illusions to back him up. But he had a roughly equal skill in kido, shunpo, and swordsply. He was still "third seat". Ikkaku too; he's obtained Bankai. There's no rule that states explicitly what your strength is when you're "third seat." A few key points I'm trying to make: 1) We're not totally sure of where Rukia stands on the seated officer scale, so we can't say for sure where Ashido stands, especially since he's only fought Rukia and none of the people with absolutely confirmed skill levels 2) Being a seated officer could still mean that you're equal to/stronger than a captain (though mostly unlikely) 3) Might I remind you that if he was serious with Rukia, he could have destroyed her Zanpakuto? Remember, Metastacia could do that. It's plainly obvious that there are maybe ten thousand things that he could've done to her that he didn't do. Why? Who knows? 4) We only have Rukia's opinion on "equal to a Bankai." Bankai could mean a variety of things; one person's "Bankai" could still be ''potentially ''crushed by another person's Shikai, as demonstrated in the Beast Swords Arc, though somewhat rarely. Besides, she was also under stress and in the thick of a battle. You can only make ''rough estimates under conditions like that. There you have it. There are a couple reasons that Ashido could be considered "officer class", although evidence points upward. Aeron Solo wuz here (talk) 16:45, April 5, 2011 (UTC) From my view, ehe should be lft classified as "officer class" as it was never explicitly stated what level he was at and at the end of the day, Rukia is not the most reliable of sources to pin this on as she's not even a VC!! I'm in agreement with Arrancar109, Aaroniero went easy on Rukia, not once did he take battle seriously and spent more time playing with her head rather than trying to defeat her!! In fact, he was so arrogant he spent the time laughing while she was impaled on Kaien's Zanpakutō, not even considering the possibility that Rukia could have trained more in the time since Kaien's death and such cockiness lost him the battle due to Rukia's proximity to his head so to sum up, she got lucky, Aaroniero lost that battle, it was not a proper victory for Rukia!! And in terms of so-called blatant proof, you're being naive if you saying moving fast makes you Captain-level or otherwise!! This is Bleach, thse days most enemies/characters need to appear to move fast in order to give any of them any sort of credibility!! It's like saying the second time Ichigo confronted Byakuya after Ganju, he would have been able to defeat him, assigning him the skills of a Captain just because he was able to keep up with his flashsteps but we know had he entered into that battle he would have lost without Yoruichi's training!! We have no idea whether Ashido even had a Shikai let alone a Bankai; there's credible assumptions and then there's just outright speculation and basing the level of somebody's power on something like I think will just jeopardise the integrity of this wikia!! Just because Rukia, somebody whose not even a lieutenant, was impressed does not elivate him to automatic lieutenant or captain level status without proof!! [[User:SunXia|'SunXia']] (Chat) 17:15, April 5, 2011 (UTC) 1) Valid information. As Godisme said, Arrancar109 is working on the article. It will likely be added. 2) We do not have nearly enough data to assume Rukia's overall level of strength. Her only major fight has been against Aaroniero, the weakest Espada, who was assuming the powers of a lieutenant-level Shinigami. I do not believe he was going easy on her (vice versa was more likely), and even then, she just barely managed to win. "Seated officer-level" is the most accurate description we can give to her. 3) Same as 1 - more detail should be put into his swordsmanship section. 4) Same as 3. The continued debate on Rukia is off topic - if you're going to dispute Rukia's level of skill, take it to her talk page. [[User:Mohrpheus|'Mohrpheus']] (Talk) 17:27, April 5, 2011 (UTC) I guees I agree with Aeron Solo and Mohrpheous in the fact that an officer could still be just as or even more powerful then a captain. I have to disagree about Aaroniero going easy on her despite his mind games at the beginning. He can only call upon the power of all the 'hollows' he created when doing his release, and she obviously lost by that point if it wasn't for her will to win and white sword technique. He cannot erase Rukia's sword while Gluttonaria is still unreleased. He said that when he devoured Metastacia, he bonded with Kaian's body that was within it. I'm not going to debate how that works unreleased, cause hollows aren't supposed to go to hueco mundo naturally when they are killed. He's a special case all together. Fact of the matter is, she was fighting one of the most powerful liu Bankai to Rukia is equivalant to Ichigo or her nii-sama's in power, or Renji. Why would she ever compare anyone to someone like a 3rd or 4th seat's Bankai which she's never seen? That's just plain obvious! And why wouldn't she compare that power to Bankai? That stunt he pulled with the 6 menos and the adjuchas was speed similar to what Ichigo pulled with his Bankai. His speed skill and power with flawless skill and invisible speed, and the ability to annihilate that many enemies at once...even if she was incompetant in measuring spiritual pressure he would still be worthy of being called roughly as powerful as a bankai. And she isn't incompetant even while in a panic, she's very good at sensing spiritual pressure. Plus were talking about one of the oldest soul reapers here, he would have died years ago if his spiritual power and skill wasn't massive. I won't carry on the age debate any more then that cause thats too complicated as it is, but its what most Bleach fans already figured out so its an empty issue. He wasn't taking her lightly when he was fighting with Nejibana! And that's what were talking about. Were not trying to say that Rukia had more power then Aaroniero unreleased, she obviously doesn't. Your missing the point SunXia, of course she was lucky and he was arrogantly uncareful while released. Fact of the matter is, she was fighting with one of the most powerful lieutenant while holding her own and him knowing her entire fighting style. And its not 'I think's' at all, its basing on how characters fight relative to each other. Basing it on obvious differences in power is Good wikia'ing. Now we don't know if he has a Shikai or Bankai. Most likely he doesn't use it because, obviously, that level of spiritual power would attract every menos in every direction!!! Just like Ichigo's fighting did!! There are other theories floating around about his release and his zampaktou broken hilt, but were just going on unreleased power here. That's it! Not shikai, not bankai, but basing it on his base power, which is usually a good thing since its a good stepping point. Your Ichigo winning against Byakuya the second time analogy makes no sense in the context were talking about right now. If Ashido did show his shikai, we could definitely talk about it like that. As he did not, its an analogy that falls flat. Thank you Mohrpheus. Sorry we can't hold this on Rukia's page, but Arrancar109 refuses to change his abilities page until he measures Ashido against Rukia. I don't like the turn of this talk going all to Rukia anymore then you do, but thats the last comment he made. Hopefully he'll still make the changes, cause when I added the things you agreed with me on, he blocked me completely.Cronomatt (talk) 17:56, April 5, 2011 (UTC) Alright we are way off topic here, this needs to go back to talking about Ashido or this discussion will be closed. If you want to continue this conversation, move it to a forum.-- Right. Were talking about the underestimating or lack of information on Ashido's skills. Were getting back on topic God, were just waiting for Arrancar109 to update or reply without blocking someone.Cronomatt (talk) 18:10, April 5, 2011 (UTC) Okay, I have to get a few things straight here, because you seem to have the wrong ideas about a few things. First of all, nobody is blocked; if this were true, then you wouldn't be able to edit anything outside of your own talk page. The page has been locked for overhaul because it lacked references, and nobody was adding them, not even you, and the article needs to be restructured entirely. When a page is locked, that means only administrators can edit it. And I'm not arguing that Ashido's skill description can be expanded on; that's part of the overhaul process and I have been planning to get to it, but for now, I'm focusing mostly on his Plot, History, and Equipment sections. Once I have finished all three, I will move on to his Personality and Powers & Abilities sections, which need to be reworked and referenced as well, so you need to be patient and wait for the process to be finished. Overhauling an article isn't exactly easy work, especially when each section has absolutely no references to work from. And as I stated before, we can only compare Ashido's powers with officer-level Shinigami and Adjuchas-class Hollows, since those were his known highest level of opponents on both accounts. As stated above, if you want to discuss Rukia's level of power, then take it to her talk page, but we can only base Ashido's level of power in comparison to hers and no other Shinigami, since she is the only known Shinigami he fought with. And if you want to start using Rukia's observations, you need to keep in mind that Ichigo and Renji were fighting Menos Grande without their Bankai, and even Rukia herself was able kill them without even using her own Shikai, not to mention she was able to kill one of the Adjuchas herself with her Shikai. [[User:Arrancar109|'Arrancar109']] (Talk) 19:01, April 5, 2011 (UTC) Fair enough. When I saw the data structure that said block/Cronomatt, I didn't realize it meant it would show that for every user. Sorry, I misinterpreted the data coding. I might have gotten a bad impression of you since a lot of the times I was improving and expanding the sections and abilities page on Ashido, you set them back to where they were without improving them yourself, even if its just a small part you could have but didn't. (sigh) Arrancar109, God just told us NOT to talk about just Rukia. We've already made it clear that Ashido's skill is far, far higher then Rukia's. What's important is not just the opponants they fight is important, but also on the scale, number and ease they defeat these opponants. No one believes Rukia is equal or near Ashido in strength, although she is still just as capable as some lieutenant if not more, being able to kill some menos without releasing her sword. Discussion on Rukia, over. Yes, Ichigo and Renji were fighting menos without their Bankai. Were they able to annihilate 6 menos and one adjuchas in two seconds without using any special attacks? Of course not, that's just silly. When Ichigo is in his Bankai, he might be able to move at lightning speed and slash 5 to 8 menos in a few seconds without using any techniques or black energy from his blade, other then speed and strikes, based on his powers. Sounds familiar? In the level of speed, efficiency, reserves, ease of combat and power to strike multiple strong enemies in seconds, that's why Ashido's base power is comparable to a Bankai. I can't think of many soul reapers that could do that with an unreleased katana and no kido, although there probobly are a few, like Yamamoto, Shuunsui, Kenpachi and Byakuya. I know more then a few captains could do that with their shikai. I think its fair to say, with no speculation, that a soul reaper with that much power and speed with an unreleased sword, is hard to come by even among the captains. Cronomatt (talk) 01:09, April 6, 2011 (UTC) Silly?? Just because they weren't seen doing it, doesn't make the possibility silly!! Do remember that this is an anime-only character and only Kubo decides Renji and Ichigo's canon abilities!! Ashido did not fight Renji nor Ichigo and even then, the clash between him and Rukia was hardly a proper clash!! Rukia is brought up because she's the only one that we can almost compare him to since he didn't fight the rest!! Sure he's stronger than Rukia, big deal!! There's no proof to establish he's on par with Yamamoto, Kyōraku, Kenpachi, Byakuya or anyone else more powerful than Rukia!! I would actually label it as more experience if we're having so much trouble here since we have no scale to state his power!! [[User:SunXia|'SunXia']] (Chat) 01:42, April 6, 2011 (UTC) Ugh, this is getting really hectic. I created Ashido's forum page and put a post there to continue the debate. Find it here. Anybody who wants to keep duking it out, put it on the forum. This debate is getting too long on the talk. It's obvious that this is going to take a very, very long time to settle this.Aeron Solo wuz here (talk) 16:40, April 6, 2011 (UTC) ---- Why does the plot lacks information? --Ilnarutoanime -NejiLoverr- 14:36, March 13, 2012 (UTC)